MamaSpeak: Etiquette Tips for Our Sons
September 30, 2009 by Lisa Maria Carroll
I recently moved to Washington, D.C, and one of the nice things about being here is that I can listen to Steve Harvey in the morning. Steve is a funny guy. But along with his comedic flair comes a softer, gentler side that’s passionate about teaching young men to act like men and helping women make a love connection.
Last week Steve’s show sent 29-year-old “Lirpanla” on a date with 27-year-old “SELDOM1.” After the date they came back on the show to tell how it went. And you could tell by their tone that it didn’t go well.
Lirpanla called SELDOM1 immature and childish because he opened her car door and made her scoot over, so he could get in. And, then he didn’t walk on the side of the sidewalk closest to the street when they were walking to the restaurant. SELDOM1 called Lirpanla high-maintenance because he had never heard of a man walking around to get into a car after letting the woman in, nor did he know that a man should walk on the sidewalk closest to the street as the first line of defense, if anything happens to the woman.
At that point I did have some compassion for the man, and especially after I read an article in Sports Illustrated about Miami Hurricane’s coach, Randy Shannon, talking about taking etiquette classes at 17 to learn how to open a door for someone. I guess I just thought it was innate. Maybe that explains why I have friends who have never had a man open their car door. It could also explain why my children’s friends would come into my house, and my son would have to tell them to take their hats off They don’t know, because they’ve never been taught. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve dined in restaurants and seen teens wearing caps and hats, and the adults they’re with say not a word.
Some men consider opening doors and pulling out chairs outmoded. And some feminists find it offensive. But, chivalry is not dead. As a true Renaissance woman who knows what makes me a strong black woman, there are some things that will never go out of style, nor are they signs of weakness for me or my male companion:
- When going down stairs or an escalator, the man goes first. In case the lady trips, he can catch her. When going up stairs or an escalator, the man follows for the same reason.
- When entering and exiting an elevator, the man holds the door open and lets the woman enter or exit first.
- When entering a building, the man opens the door for the woman so that she may enter first. (Except when entering the house. A man enters the house before his wife and kids.)
- When exiting a building, the man goes to the same side of the woman that the door hinge is on, reaches around her, pushes open the door and holds it while she exits.
- For revolving doors, let the lady enters first. Gently get the door moving; step into the next “stall”, and continue pushing, so she doesn’t need to.
- When walking down the street, the man should be between the lady and the traffic.
- Always open a car door for a woman. After you open the door, walk around and get in. Don’t ask her to scoot over.
- Go to the door to get your date. Never sit in the car and honk your horn. After a date, a man walks a lady to her door.
- If a woman drives to a man’s place, the man walks her to her car when she is ready to go, opens the door, and helps her get in.
- A man respects a woman’s boundaries. “No” means “no,” even if he thinks it’s probably “yes.”
- A man never calls a woman out of her name.
- A man never…E-V-E-R hits a woman.
- A man never tries to buy love, because he’ll never finish paying for it.
- A man ALWAYS pays for the first date.
- A man helps a lady with her suitcase.
- A man remove his hat upon entering a restaurant.
- A man pulls out the lady’s chair, and helps her get seated before he sits down.
- When the lady needs to go to the restroom, the man stands up and pulls out her chair. When the lady returns from the restroom, the man stands up and pulls out her chair.
Mamas, we might not be able to teach our sons everything about becoming a man, but we can certainly join Steve in teaching them how to treat women.
WeParent Family, what do you think we should be teaching our sons?
MamaSpeak: Mothering Beyond Biology
Fatherhood Freestyle: You Are the Prize
Teaching My Son about Violence
Terrence on Wed, 30th Sep 2009 4:23 pm
I’m with you Lisa, 100%! Many of these practices only require a little effort but the pay off in appreciation can be huge. I can recall my son grumbling about some of these when he was younger but it fills me with pride to see him open doors, remove his hat and treat women with respect. I can recall laughing out loud when his older sister would stand at a door waiting for him to get the message, and do his thing.. This is important not just to make a good impression on others but it is a source of respect for oneself. And believe it or not, I have run into a couple of sisters who preferred not to be treated this way, and that’s ok too. This isn’t about forcing our will on others, its a way of showing consideration and respect for others.
Lisa Maria Carroll on Wed, 30th Sep 2009 5:16 pm
Terrence,
LOL @ your daughter waiting for your son to get to the door to open it. My son has three older sisters, and they are the same way.
Isn’t it refreshing and delightful to see a young man being a gentle man, opening doors, removing his hat, respecting women?
*SMH* at women who prefer not to be treated this way. I don’t understand that. But, then again, maybe I’m not supposed to.
Mike on Thu, 19th Nov 2009 5:05 am
Great post! I know it has been up for awhile, but I wanted to comment anyway. I agree with the vast majority of your etiquette tips, but I always get concerned when we have blanket rules or tips when it comes to chivalrous gestures. Some of these can not be expected, and I am not sure they should be. I should say that I consider myself a male feminist and, as the custodial parent of a young daughter, I definitely want her to know that men should always respect her. That being said, I also think it is extremely important for her to project the image and reality of self-sufficiency as well as personal strength and respect. I am reflecting on my experiences raising my daughter and the kinds of lessons I want her to learn. Raising a son is obviously very different but if we are going to address how a man treats/respects a lady (as most of the tips), the underlying messages would ideally be the same, right?
As a man who has done his fair share of dating, there is nothing more attractive than a woman who is ready and willing to dismantle the traditional gender role boundaries that I believe can put women at a disadvantage. Personally, I will always pay for a woman who pulls out her purse to pay for the first meal (or even go dutch). However, I would be much more hesitant with a woman who EXPECTED this, especially if she would consider not going on a second date because of it.
Like I said above, I am all about respect, but we do not all define respect the same way. No, a man should NEVER call a woman out of her name or lay his hands on her, but what does it REALLY mean if he asks her to scoot over in the car or doesn’t walk between her and the street? Not saying I would do this (smile), but is that a true sign of disrespect? I would say no. What say you?
Again, great post.
Lisa Maria Carroll on Sat, 21st Nov 2009 12:29 pm
Mike (oh boy),
Are you saying that if a man asks me out on a date that I should at least REACH for my purse (because I’m NOT paying for the date) as a gesture of feminism and independence? Notice, I said a man pays for the FIRST date. After that, even I’m open.
I think the biggest reason that I don’t date is because I was taught that a man will always follow his money. And, because I expect a man to pay for the first date, I don’t want to get caught up in worrying about what I’ll have to give in return. But maybe you can help me adjust my way of thinking to expect that if a man asks me out, I’ll be sure to stop by the ATM on the way so I can pay for the date…
I’ll admit that I do prefer more gender traditional roles in a relationship, and I don’t feel like I’m at a disadvantage; I find strength in submission. I expect to not cut the grass or wash my car. (I don’t do it when I’m not in a relationship.) It stems from my need to feel like I’m being cared for by my man. And, yes, I reciprocate. Again, I don’t feel weakened or that I’m taking women 10 steps backwards in the progress by catering to my mate.
But let’s keep it real Mike, I’m sure you treat a woman that you’re feeling and really into different from a casual date. I agree that there should not be blanket rules, but there should be a blanket level of respect. And I totally, totally, TOTALLY that we don’t all define respect in the same way. (We don’t have enough megabytes for me to explain how I came to that conclusion.)
Now, as for your daughter being strong and independent, I’m sure she will be because of her father. She’ll be able to pay her own bills, make her own decisions, and take care of herself. But, at the end of the day, she will expect a man to protect and provide for her in many of the ways that you do. So, when she enters her teenage years, will you take her out and tell her to pay for the dates, in an effort to groom her for the men you think she’ll meet?
I’d love to know the expectations you’ll teach her to have of the men she’ll date.
Mike on Sat, 21st Nov 2009 4:13 pm
I am so happy you responded because this is such an interesting topic to me. I also love a good conversation and exchange of ideas!!! I have so much to say, but I’ll try to make this brief.
I remember having the “pay for the first meal” conversation with an ex-girlfriend when we were first getting to know each other. She felt similar to you, stating there would probably not be a second date if the man did not pay. She felt there was some predictive validity in this gesture. But we all know people (men and women alike) bring their representative to the first date anyway. Anyway, we still talk regularly, so the other day, I called her to re-discuss your post and my response. In that conversation, we discussed what chivalrous acts represented. I (we) came to the conclusion that these acts are less representative of respect and more of “kind gestures.” After all, if a man is not taught that these acts represent respect toward women, can we really say that a failure to carry them out signifies disrespect? I do not think so. We talked about if women should be expected to return gestures and, if so, how. I guess I can say that if I ask you on a date, then I should probably pay. After all, it WOULD be kinda off-putting to make a decision about what restaurant I want to bring you to, and then ask you to pay, especially if it’s pricey…lol. It may be that the premises of our arguments are different. I am of the mindset that you move steadfastly to pursue your interest, even if that means that, as the woman, you ask the man if he wants to go out. I know many women would never ask a man out on a first date, but why not? In the end, healthy relationships rely on plenty give and take. It just depends on whether it is balanced and acceptable to each party. Either way, I will always tell my daughter to have plan that allows her to pay for her own meal and get home (if she didn’t drive) because you just never know how things will turn out. She needs to be realistic, and understand that not everyone she meets will treat her like she deserves to be treated. That’s just the sad reality.
Now, I was really thinking about your statement about finding strength in submission. I can definitely appreciate how being able to submit or “let go” and truly trust your partner to exercise sound judgment can a very liberating experience. I can also imagine situations that it can be very disempowering. The difference here may lie in personal maturity, spirituality/faith, and more practically, who your significant other. However, I also wonder if we’d have divergent views about how we define true submission. Call it the psychologist in me, but I believe everything revolves around how we define and interpret things. To me, submission is when someone backs down even though they have the urge to go a different route. It’s when a decision has to be made, I consult with you then make a decision (for the both of us) that is different than what you thought, and you “submit.” It is truly awesome if you find calm in that. I don’t define submission as when I expect you to do something that I have no desire or skill to do. By the way, submission and power in relationships are so interesting to me, particularly when it comes to co-parenting and child rearing.
My daughter is not of dating age, so I can only speculate on what I will teach her about dating – as a single mom with multiple kids (hats off to you, figuratively), you know how we PLAN to respond may require an impromptu adjustment. Now, I agree that how I treat and respect women will serve as a standard for what my daughter should expect from men in the future. I do not have women in and out of my house because I do not want her to think it is acceptable for her to be one of the many women in and out of some man’s house. And no, I am not going to take her to restaurants and ask her to pay in order to groom her for future relationships – funny! But, I will tell her that she needs to be prepared and ready for the best and worst in people. I will tell her that if a man hits her, then I will handle it from there (no, seriously). And I will tell her it “may” be a super nice gesture for a man to stand in front her on the downward escalator (that is new to me) or pull out her chair when she goes to the restroom and then do it in reverse upon her return. But I will also tell her that if he doesn’t do these things, she should refrain from jumping to any conclusions about what it means (she should do this regardless of whether he does it or not). Rather, she should consider these things in context by looking at him as the sum of his parts, understanding his personal experiences, or assessing what he expects in return, if anything. Then, she should effectively communicate and explain her thinking, ideas, and values (as you eloquently did in your piece) to see if he can vibe with that. At that point, it’ll be up to her to make a decision about whether his response works for her. Finally, I will encourage her to reciprocate equally as important gestures as long as they do not compromise her integrity or are otherwise discrepant with her self-image. Am I living in a dream world (lol)? I guess we’ll have to see how things play out.
I guess I failed at making this brief. Thanks for engaging me in this discussion.
Lisa Maria Carroll on Sun, 22nd Nov 2009 4:18 am
Mike, I appreciate and welcome your feedback. I’m glad that your perspective is that of a dating man and not just a trained psychologist—experience, and not just theory. There’s nothing like real-life application. Perhaps somewhere in this discussion I’ll get over my list of demands, and have a breakthrough in my dating life…perhaps. (Smile)
Now, back to the show…
You appear to be using the words chivalry and respect interchangeably, but I don’t think they’re one in the same. I would no more resent a man for not pulling out my chair than I would expect him to be angry at me when he arrives home and dinner is not on the table. I totally agree that these are acts of kind gestures, and not (necessarily) deal breakers. And as we move steadfastly towards our interests, do we not reciprocate more kind gestures (hopefully), not as a tit-for-tat measure or out of obligation, but as a sign of the natural progression of the relationship?
The psychologist in you is going to have to put in overtime to help me analyze and see the light on how you “guess” that if you ask a woman on a date, then you should “probably” pay. The price of the restaurant is a moot point. The fact that YOU asked her out is what’s important. And “off-putting” is an understatement. Now, as for her representative showing up, that’s a chance we all take, whether we’re paying or not; it’s truly a downside to dating. You mentioned that you discussed this with your ex-girlfriend; however, you failed to mention whether or not she is now paying for the first date. I am in agreement with her that there is some predictive validity in a man paying for the first date. I’m not sure why I believe that, because I’ve certainly had men pay for the first date, and then not live up to what I thought that gesture symbolized. Now, with that said, please help me understand the rationale, logic, common sense, behind asking a woman on a date and then expecting her to pay. In the interest of equality (whatever!), I certainly wouldn’t expect a man to pay for the date if I asked him out. (Remember, I’m working on being progressive.)
Submission is my way of letting go of my need to be in control, and not needing to always be “right.” (Did I say that out loud? Now, that’s progress!) It’s about me submitting to what’s in the best interest of a relationship—be it romantic, familial or platonic. As a single mother who has been flying solo for almost 20 years, it stands to reason that letting go is an issue yet to be overcome. I’m used to being in the driver’s seat. That has less to do with a Superwoman syndrome, and more to do with reality—it is what it is. I admit that it’s tough to turn over the reins when I think I ALWAYS know what’s best, so I don’t do so arbitrarily. After all, I’m no fool. But, that’s where the art of communication comes in. Wouldn’t the psychologist in you agree that it’s better to communicate one’s needs and expectations than assume the other person knows? It was this breakdown in communication—or, better yet, the lack thereof—that caused the co-parenting experience for me that wasn’t. But there’s much to be gleaned from that experience in hopes of the betterment of myself.
Your expectations for your daughter’s relationship are realistic, although you’ll soon learn how little control you really have over that. And that’s not a bad thing. As the mother of four adult children, there have been several impromptu adjustments. I learn as I teach. Parenting never ends, but the dynamics of the relationship changes. And that, too, comes from me respecting boundaries and allowing them their space to grow as adults, even if I don’t agree. I’m sure they would define those as kind-gestures.